I keep tabs on the internet and once in a while go out and scour for new links to add to the links page here. One of the many I found this evening is a lively discussion that cropped up on SoCaliReefs.com. First, thanks for the enthusiasm guys; I hope you all enjoy the journey!
But I have to jump out there and do a little bit of mythbusting. I have to bring up my good friend Rich Ross, author of a fantastic series of articles called the “Skeptical Reefkeeping” – see Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, and Part 5. To drastically paraphrase, he would probably tell you that perhaps you shouldn’t believe everything you read, particularly on the internet, and especially in a reefkeeping forum. Rich’s articles are MUST-READS for anyone using the un-curated internet as their primary information source.
So too, now and again, I have to simply point out misinformation as it pertains to this project. You can use Rich’s methodologies to determine if I am truly an authority on the subject of the Lightning Maroon Clownfish or not. And once you’ve decided whether or not I’m a trustworthy author on this topic, here’s some choice quotes, from some great fans (no sarcasm intended) at http://www.socalireefs.com/forums/showthread.php?31195-Lightning-Maroon-Clown-Fish-Spawns - I am guessing this is a classic example of how information travels from person to person, and takes on a life of it’s own, completely separated from the actual factual basis for the info. You know, like that phone game you used to play on the bus ride to school…
GBoy66 asked, “So he bred a lightning with just an average maroon? Why not 2 lightnings? Wont that drastically decrease the amount of lightnings in the clutch..?”
Yes, I did breed this Lightning Maroon clownfish with another maroon, but specifically another white stripe maroon clownfish collected from the same small island (Fisherman’s Island) in Papua New Guinea. Certainly not a random “average” maroon, but a very specific broodstock choice. Why not 2 lightnings? Because I only have the one. As far as decreasing the amount of lightnings in a clutch – well, frankly that’s jumping 10 leaps ahead of where our knowledge base is at this point. First, we don’t know that this is genetic. Second, if it is genetic, we won’t know what type of genetic trait it is. It could be recessive (like albinism), which could mean NO lightnings in F1 generation (unless the mate carries the recessive gene as well). It could be straight up dominant (which would mean potentially 100% Lightnings). It could be something far more complicated, be it partially dominant (Snowflake in A. ocellaris is an example of a partially dominant trait; mate two snowflakes together, and you get 25% Wyoming Whites). It could be co-dominant, multiple alleles…who knows. No one.
LotsaFishes wrote, “I believe in all of recorded fish-collecting history, only two have been caught. He had both of them at one point, but one died. He has tried for 2+ years to get his remaining one to get along with and mate with a second clown.”
On the first count, yes, as far as I am aware, there was the first one, collected in 2008, and the second one, in 2010. Where you’re incorrect is in suggesting that I had “both of them” at any time…I have only owned the one. Yes, I have been working for 2+ years on this breeding project, but not all of that time was spent directly attempting to pair the fish; many months were spent holding out for more broodstock from Seasmart in PNG, which unfortunately never materialized. Only once I knew that the requested large Female PNG Maroons I wanted weren’t going to come, did I change plans to start working with what I already had on hand.
gumbii stated, “nope… the first pair was auctioned off for twice as much as the 2nd pair, but some random ballin’ guy killed them… then they said we’re only gonna auction them off to professional breeders and this kat got them… good thing too…”
Simply put, categorically incorrect. There has never been any “Lightning Maroon PAIRS“. The first one collected…I’ve heard rumors about its fate. Ultimately, the single fish I obtained did have offers on it that were stratospheric, but in the end, through the decisions of multiple people, the fish wound up in my hands. I DID pay quite dearly for them, as some of my local hobbyists can attest (I sold tons of valuable livestock to help fund this purchase, and even then it did not cover the total investment in this project).
gumbii, not picking on you but man, I gotta ask where you’re getting your “facts”? You went on to subsequently post, “so far only two females were caught… but they gave him a male from the same spot she was caught… hoping that it might have the same genetic make up or heterogeneous for “lightning”…”
Unfortunately again, these statements are simply riddled with misinformation. To say two females were caught is not knowable; both fish were brought in as singles, without mates, and in the case of the Lightning Maroon I now take care of, I am beyond convinced that the fish was originally still male when sent to me. Also, I may have to take issue with your choice of the word “gave”, as in fact all fish in this project were paid for. No free lunches here. But you are right; the reasoning behind using other Maroons from the same geographic area is simply to increase the odds that if genetic, and if recessive, we could stumble upon some offspring in the F1 generation due to the mate being heterozygous; in layman’s terms, the odd chance that the mate carries a “hidden” Lightning gene.
GBoy66 then asked, “Oooohhhhh, ok. So, are these fish endangered? Weak? Why are they so hard to catch/keep..”
Maroon Clownfish are not endangered to the best of my knowledge. To answer your other questions out of order, I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that clownfish are probably among the easiest marine fish to collect in the wild simply because they are so site-attached and aggressive (willing to defend their anemones against far larger intruders..like divers). Regarding the “weak” question – well, I assume you’re referring to the recent spates of illness. At the moment they seem to have everyone stumped; I would at times ponder whether the Lightning is in fact much older than we might think (it is CERTAINLY a possibility; clownfish can live for decades in captivity, and in the wild, while perhaps not common, I am aware of a single Percula Clownfish in the wild that was said to be 32 years old upon examination). Imagine if this fish was already 10 years old when I got it; if that’s the case, it could already be quite near the end of it’s life (not ALL clowns live for decades of course). At the moment, it is anyone’s guess.
Regarding these fish in general being “hard to keep”; wild caught clownfish are prone to diseases, particularly Brooklynella, which can make them far more difficult to work with. Wild caught fish can take months or years or more before spawning for anyone, if they ever do. Most aquarium hobbyist have been spoiled (in a good way) by the readily available and abundant supply of captive bred clownfish (of many species these days). Thus, there have been hobbyists who see the problems I have had with the PNG Maroons as a group over the past 2.5 years, and they question my abilities as a marine fish keeper and breeder. Then I talk to people who I truly respect, and know they speak from a viewpoint of experience, and I get told things like “you’re doing FANTASTIC” or “most people wouldn’t have made it this far.”. Knowing what I also personally know, I tend to look towards those with large experience bases who by and large, are supportive of my overall progress and have yet to question my abilities. The message to the everyday hobbyist, particularly the beginner? Make sure you start with captive-bred clownfish; save the wild caught ones until you have some experience.
el dude quipped, “Its a rare genetic variation…” [Update #3 - in rechecking the posts (due to Gumbii's comments), I see that the word "genetic" is no longer present in the post by el dude...a case of a quick edit? I'm pretty sure I copy & pasted all my excerpts, but I'm not infallible; then again such changes are why I tend to copy things over in the first place. Only mentioned out of respect for el dude in case I misread what he wrote]
Optimistic thinking my friend, as we certainly do not know that yet. In fact, back in CORAL a while ago, I believe Wittenrich went on the record in a pro-genetic stance, while verteran Moe took the opposing viewpoint. If these two wind up on opposite ends of the prognostication, well, I’d say making definitive statements like that are simply premature. I HOPE you are right el dude, but you have no way of knowing yet.
It’s amazing how even when the information is publicly out there for anyone to read (as this project has been online since day one), that so much misinformation can be floating around out there. In fact, I’m pretty sure this isn’t the first ‘fact check’ post I’ve had to do (given that I have a “tag” for “Fact check” already in the system!). Of course, it’s fun to speculate and debate, and to the casual web reader, just remember that just because you read it on the internet, doesn’t make it even remotely true. Updates on the babies coming soon!
- UPDATE -
The very next web post I came across is this one - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=20437213 - wow, more mis-info.
reefstew stated, “They have been out for about a year now. Very expensive. ”
I will simply respond – news to me. Would LOVE to see the retail source that’s offering them Thankfully, nwcronauer1242 came in and provided information that, to the best of my knowledge, is correct. The irony here is that this perfectly illustrates a point Richard Ross makes about not believing what you write solely based on “post counts”. It just so happens that reefstew is a veteran ReefCentral post with 1000+ posts; nwcronauer1242 has a whopping 32. Nw also happens to be the one who’s probably right. I say probably, because of this next statement:
lostmyz wrote, “there was another lightening maroon clownfish at the wholesalers in LA about 1 month ago and it was being sold for 1200…. ”
I can’t say this is untrue, although here’s some things that call this into question. First, I believe I have enough industry contacts going around that someone, somewhere, would have spilled the beans knowing about this project.
Second, back in May, there was this fish - http://blog.aquanerd.com/2012/05/lightning-maroon-clownfish-precursor.html - also harvested from PNG, although Dan stops short of calling that fish a Lightning Maroon. Now, the “timeframe” roughly fits – throw on a ton of assumptions and viola, you have the info that lostmyz is presenting. Afterall, there are still people who believe that there have been three full on Lightning Maroons collected, one only weeks after I got mine. You might want to go read that post - http://www.lightning-maroon-clownfish.com/?p=844
Third, and perhaps most importantly, while I have heard some rumors, I have seen no official words of ANY PNG fish being shipped to the US at this time. (Update #2 - it’s been minutes since I wrote the above, but I just got word straight from EcoAquariums PNG moments ago, on their facebook page, “ First shipment to the USA SHOULD happen this week!”
So unless Dan Navin is a lying, that categorically means that there have been no PNG Maroons of any kind, let alone Lightning Maroons from PNG (the only place they’ve been found thus far), entering the US, let alone a wholesaler on 104th street in LA, since SEASMART last shipped fish in mid 2010. So unless “last month’s LA Lightning” was collected in another location (certainly possible), all the information and experience I have is pushing me to think that lostmyz is not correct. Oh, and just a hunch; any LA wholesaler who got their hands on a new wild-caught Lightning Maroon would have talked it up to the world; we probably would’ve seen pictures and a bidding war.
Obviously, I am not alone, and other RC members did start asking questions…
…to which lostmyz replied, “I didn’t purchase it at the wholesaler in LA so I can’t really tell you anything about it. And as for papertrail I am pretty sure they aren’t coughing that over. And it was wild caught.”
And lostmyz wrote on, “The thing with these “lightening bolts” is that its a mutation. Beyond the actual patterning mutation that this fish is going through the gene that causes it most likely causes other issues with the fish. Hence the puldging eye on the current one alive and the fact that out of 300 eggs, 1 survived and most likely will grow to be normal.”
I’ll just hit these as bullet points
- mutation? unknown and unproven. No way you could know one way or another.
- genetics causing issues with the Lightning’s health? possible, but unlikely given that the mate has also shown problems in the past few months.
- out of 300 eggs, 1 survived? – categorically incorrect, top to bottom wrong. And that’s provable right here on this blog, just one post prior (as well as in the forthcoming next post)